Episode 4: Catherine Gairard, independent singer, harpist, & movie soundtrack composer

Transcript

(music: intro)

Charney Kaye
Welcome to the XJ music podcast. I’m Charney Kaye, founder here with co-founder Jamal Whitaker.

Jamal Whitaker
Hey hey!

Charney Kaye
We’re here today with Catherine Gairard. Very talented harpist and composer, really looking forward to speaking with you today about your music. And also your thoughts on composing for the screen. And for video games.

Catherine Gairard
Great. Thank you so much for having me here. It’s a big pleasure. So my name is Catherine Gairard, as you said, and I am a musician and an artist. I always wanted to write music, but it was difficult for me to pinpoint, like what type of music they didn’t want to create. So at first I started like, most of the people, I guess, with this idea of releasing albums, doing concerts, being famous and all that, which is nice. But at some point, I started to feel that the way my music was turning out, like the song format was a little bit too small for it. Like I wanted to develop more things, more ideas. And since I love movies, so much, especially animation, fantasy movies, I at some point, I realized, like I am playing movies, like boring movies on my computer, for example, while I’m doing something else. And then at some point, I’m just following the story through the sounds and the music, and analyzing all that subconsciously. And then it somehow reflects on my music. And that’s how I realized and maybe that that could be a great venue for me to go to produce music for movies and tell stories with music.

Jamal Whitaker
How did you discover music in your life?

Catherine Gairard
Well, it’s very fun because my family is not like the typical family that is so musical oriented, having a lot of venues and things like that showing a lot of artists, it was just a radio music, surprisingly, and even with the radio music, because it within that you can find good things. So at least they were choosing the best broadcasting channels on the radio for music. And I was already absorbing a lot of things through there. And then also a I am half Peruvian, I lived in Peru until 2014. And in Peru, in the education system that we have, we love celebrating things like Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, Independence day, any day, you will have like events, and you will rehearse for dancing traditional Peruvian music or reciting poems or even some music sometimes and I will always participate. And so first there was the traditional music that I will dance on. And that that was one and then I love for Performing Arts in General develop things too, that reciting poems, and my mother will be hiding somewhere next to me. And if I freeze she would tell me the following like teeth, the following phrase, so I was like, Oh, yes, this and continue reciting doing a lot of theater. Like cannot like have like a defining moment. Oh, this is how I discovery. It was actually the kind of the country it seems like everything was pulling me out away from music. Because if I am like, we didn’t have much money, and lessons were expensive back then. So there was no internet and online courses, nothing like that. So I couldn’t start until later when I was already in Europe studying and you know, so when I tried to sing something at the time, when I was a child, people will be like, No, you are not good at that just shut up. Don’t Don’t Don’t say don’t do anything. Then that was normal, I had no training. So obviously, it was not going to go to come out good, right. But it was always there. And then I later on I will start with guitar lessons and things here and there. And I will be very intermittent like doing it for a couple months, then leaving it for another couple months and so on and so on. And but every time I would leave it away, they always come a moment where it just hurts to not be doing anything music related. So that’s how I little by little realize that’s my pattern. Every time I’m not doing this. I’m not feeling happy, or okay. I’m stressed I’m bitter even. And even though I was doing theater at university, so it was not that far away. But when I decided to change to fully doing music, it’s not that I don’t miss acting by doesn’t hurt, like missing music did hurt. So that’s how I knew that was gonna be the main thing. At least.

Charney Kaye
It was watching the animated video for solar, the title track on your EP. Yeah. And you know, this video is rich with characters, especially animals see a dolphin, Wolf and bird and horse cat and lots of spirits. I’m curious what these characters mean to you. And when you’re composing, are you thinking about these light motifs connected to the characters? Yeah,

Catherine Gairard
So, “sola” in Spanish means alone. So that the reason I have that title is because since one of my loves in music is heavy metal rock, I always want to have some little element of it in my music. And typically, rock and heavy metal is like a band. Dark, right, you have bands groups, and I wanted at some point to have my group but I couldn’t find people who would have the same mindset as me, for both the creative process and the business side of things. Like I want to actually do something with music and leave off from my music, and, and just share it with as many people as possible. But sadly, majority of people don’t have that mindset. And they already start by thinking I’ll never leave of my music anyway. So that leads to not being engaged to missing rehearsals to just not taking it seriously at all. Because if you have the belief that is going nowhere, why you will put an effort and commitment to something that’s going nowhere, right. So that’s that’s the main problem. So at some point I said, I’m especially in like, particularly in 2020 with the whole pandemic situation, I realize how fragile life is and how things you take for granted. They are not right. So I decided I was not going to to wait for anyone anymore, I will start alone. And then if someone had to come along the way they would find me but I had to start walking so that song is about that is starting this journey is all dark, it’s all creepy, because you’re alone in the forest. You don’t know what’s going to happen. But then your intuition Higher Self goal however you want to call it starts guiding you and that’s the metaphor of all those animals the fall gone is like the intelligence the cat is the being a how you call it like you know cats are sneaky and they have like their strategy is to do things and they are cute. And a dolphin also has this the friendship is a collaboration is this help that comes when you least expected What else was there the horse is also the intuition the inner strings that pushes you forward. So it was metaphors for us talking about this, this is strength that we all have that is within us and that we discover when we start doing things that are hard but our worth is these efforts right? So and then there is like this V Lane thing that is like your inner demons that you have to fight I have a lot of those all the time, like second thoughts. Because you see people like they are doing their things and you say wow, how confident they are and you don’t know all the battles that are behind like I remember for my first songs that I will be there sitting on the piano for three hours but just staring at the piano and if someone was looking at me from the outside they will be like work doing actually everything was happening inside I was literally fighting these thoughts. If you’re not good enough, no one’s gonna like it your musics too weird cetera, et cetera that also comes from ignorance because then the more I learned about cinematic music, etc, the more I realized my music is not weird. It’s just I didn’t know the genre. It was a so it was not to something strange. A some people say it’s all regional or different. But that doesn’t mean it’s something like Alien, either. Right? You can identify things in there. So the more I learned and and when I started releasing things and and seeing like a little spark of oh, people like that. It was easier and easier for me to beat those demons at least to keep them at bay and not let them having me paralyzed away like three hours staring at the piano doing nothing but just in my head. You know, who told the whole EP talks about that.

Charney Kaye
Something that struck me which you had talked about a bit there- Your music has a lot of juxtaposition of light and heavy instruments, themes, you know, the textures. And so I was curious, just when you’re composing, what situations caused you to reach for the lighter instruments or the heavier instruments and you know, how do you feel about juxtaposing them?

Catherine Gairard
Okay, so these are key word for me that many musicians especially know what they tend to forget, for some reason. But it’s, I think it’s like the stone foundation of music, and maybe even art in general. And new ones, you need to find new ones, if you check out older music, like what’s called classical music, classical music is actually just the music from the 18th century. And then you have other movements like romantic period will be 19th century, etc. But the common point is that there’s always a nuance where you travel from soft and then you have very upbeat part and then soft again, and that creates, like this journey, this movement and, and this exploration of how a theme, like a melody, for example, can evolve with different elements such as a different orchestration, that will be like soft instruments, heavy instrument, or a different harmony, like just the chords you bought underneath that create different moods, right? So nuance is everything to keep that alive. It’s like when you see this machine that they put to patients in the hospital, and you know the name in English, that is a Tu, Tu, Tu, Tu, and you know, it’s alive, because it’s doing thing, if it’s flat, it’s dead. So you need to have this right. So that’s why I always looking for contrast, because that’s the best way to have that nuance that movement. And that actually, to me, it came from, from old, a Spanish pop from the 70s 80s like holy lives, yes, I don’t know if that even says something to you. But if there’s someone who knows who is also Spanish speaking, holy legend, you know, bravo, this, this particular style of Spanish pop that that happened in the 70s 80s in this in the Hispanic Latino scene, they do that very well. They have a lot of nuances. And it was very surprising for me to today. You don’t have much of that, like I There are many symphonic metal, heavy metal bands that have a lot of elements, like a lot of instruments. But from beginning to end, the situation is the same, it’s flat, even though there’s a lot of things happening. So new ones, rather than quantity of instruments and the the, how many instruments you use, will not determine if your music is alive or not. They are great productions like a Nia doesn’t have much many instruments. And still, it’s it’s mellow. And yeah, it’s very relaxing, but I don’t know, total eclipse for the heart, for example, I was listening to that, with more production appears, is not much happening. There really is seemingly is not it’s not like a huge orchestra or anything. And still it fills the whole space and raise your forward. You know, and who doesn’t love that song right?

Jamal Whitaker
Talking about juxtaposition and nuance and contrast. We totally loved the video for Kyoto. And Tani and I were talking about the juxtaposition between your vocals and Jose Andrea’s vocals on that track. How did the process of combining both of your voices go about when you guys were making that song?

Catherine Gairard
Well, that was funny because he in Spanish scene he is he has more history more how you say that more background more cachet than me or he has been around for 20 plus years. I just started in 2020. So when you have a collaboration like this, which is was very lucky to get like LA he liked the song. So that was the way I was lucky. You cannot go with a draft or like an idea. You have to have the thing already built. So he got the song already produced and Don with my voice and instead of his voice there was my poor producers that he did his best to saying just for him to say To have an idea of the final product. And then it was his professionalism and his experience to analyze that, and to pick up the things in his style that will go good for that song. And since he actually love it, because artists, we can be a little bit unpredictable, sometimes and many, many of them, if you ask them, they will say, if I don’t like the song or the project, I am not going to do it no matter how much money for example, you offer me for artistic things like that. There are some who will accept the money even though they don’t like the project. But the really good ones will do it. If they like it, they won’t look as much as how many followers you have, or these and that is the song is a project where they care about is like going to a very important job interview, you are going to go under your best light, you’re gonna dress up, you’re gonna do gonna do your best to show your best you. So this is the same, I had to have the whole thing already ready for him. Oh, to see the song Under its baseline. This has potential I’ll do it. And if they love it, then you have what happened there. He rehearsed the song, he put an effort, he prepared things. So when he arrived to the studio, it was perfect. He already knew what to do for that song. And if someone does it because they are in need of money, which I don’t judge that happens. But if they are not serious enough, they won’t put as much effort. And then the final product, when could be good could be bad. That also depends on how professional the person is.

Charney Kaye
We noticed you were talking about your upcoming album “entelequia.” Pipe dream, is that what that means?

Catherine Gairard
So entelequia is a word that is a bit older. But it sounds like a little mysterious. So I wanted to play with that. But entelequia is basically a Utopia thing. It’s an ideal situation that we would all love to be true. But it’s not very possible to have. So it’s like a new utopia, but more even more idealistic. It’s like an exaggeration of utopias. Wow, the ultimate dream. That’s That’s what Interlaken means. But the whole album is going to be a criticism for the things that we saw in the last year that like there was this whole situation and I feel like the government sort of took advantage of the situation to pass 13th lows and certain behaviors that are a bit against freedom. You know, so I think no matter what we think about the situation, per se, the whole thing that’s happened around it was not legit. I think we can all agree that the way it was done was in certain countries especially it was very, very, like a dictatorship. And so it’s it’s many people recall that 1984 book, for example, that is like the extreme like is that dystopia total dystopia? But I think the message we need to take out from books like that is not at all that oh, we are there or whether we can’t do anything that that’s when you lose us one where were they when is that the moment you give up and say there’s nothing we can do. It’s over you know, we are creative people. We all have a brain to think and that’s how we have arrived to where we are today is because there was someone courageous enough to have the idea like Oh, imagine we have like this substance in the air that is invisible that allows people to connect and see each other from 1000 kilometres away. And someone will say you’re crazy man but then now thanks to that crazy person. We have the internet and we are talking right now so there’s always an issue there’s always a solution right so my songs in Interlaken is okay maybe we cannot have the end the Laker Utopia but there’s always somewhere we can go get closer to that and that starts by keeping your mind free so the whole song is a look at what’s happening. Wake up in you can do something there’s a song is called NC recoil was logos, the crazy crazy circus. And it’s all about all this noise that they put to you all this This tractions in many many ways like country ideologies for example designed to make you fight between each other like woke versus based on based thing they are right and woke also think they are right. And they all fighting a they don’t realize they’re wasting their time.

Jamal Whitaker
Speaking of the future and technology and what some might say is dystopia, or utopia, ik. And moving forward within creativity, the topic of AI are combined with human made art, you said that your visual art combines traditional and digital drawing and harnesses the power of AI, right, yeah, yeah. And then you’re also using frame by frame animation. Yeah. What are the most important aspects to keep human-made? And when do you bring in AI when you’re creating like you did with the your animated videos?

Catherine Gairard
I think, well, I love this. Something similar happened a few years ago, when the first digital drawing tools appeared like the first graphic tablets and the ability to draw in Photoshop and do digital art. And everyone went crazy. And they say, No, this is terrible, traditional painting is gonna die. And this and that. And that never happened. There are still people who do watercolors, I love watercolors, I’m very bad on watercolors, but I still try sometimes. And what happened is that many artists will take the watercolor drawings, and they will put them on procreate or Photoshop, for example. And they will use that to just take their art to the next level, because there are certain things that you cannot achieve. With traditional drawing that you can with digital drawing, it’s just a different medium. It’s like when before oil painting, there were something else and I am sure people had the same debate, oh, my goodness, no oil painting is gonna ruin painting is still is around here today, right? So with AI is sort of the same thing to me. And I’m in how I integrated it in my work, I feel it can help you get to certain things. But then there’s a still you have at least me, I have to tweak it though. Because also I work with photography. So my goal is not just having like a drawing is having me on the drawing because it’s for my album cover art. So there’s another function. So the end goal of what you are doing is going to influence how you will use the mediums but I still see a I like another medium to create. That’s all you can get inspiration, for example, or you can learn if you have a specific posture of a person on your mind, for example, and you can’t find the right reference on Google, then you can type to the Lee or whichever platform you want. Make me a person that is sitting this way, this way, this way, this way. And then it will come up with an idea. And it doesn’t mean you have to use that. But you can see how it’s done. And then you can draw it and you learn that position. So you can use it as a learning tool. For example, I use it lately in the last visuals that I made. The new version of Photoshop has an AI generating thing included. Yeah, and it’s awesome if you want to do backgrounds, because it will adapt the background to your subject, and will also use the same color palette. So you save a lot of time. Because the thing already the background already goes well with your subject because it’s the same colors and exposure and everything. But from there, I feel like it lacks a little bit of human things. So I you start compositing booting from other pictures, etc, etc. And working on that. And then the final result is something that you don’t even know anymore. Is it AI? Is it photo montage, photography? It’s a mixture of different things, just like my music.

Charney Kaye
Very cool. You know, we spend a lot of time here in our lab, deconstructing what is a song right? And we’re gonna get into talking about the tool that we built and ask you just kind of what you might do with such a tool in your own composition. And I’m curious music has melodies or harmonies rhythms for you what makes it a song?

Catherine Gairard
Oh, wow. So well, song is like a music form. Okay, so you have the song that is intro verse, chorus, verse, chorus, maybe a bridge chorus, chorus and variations but you always have something similar to that. And then you can have up a van up avanza dancing Baroque type of song that will have, basically is the same verse with different lyrics if there are lyrics, but repeated over and over again, till the end till you can’t dance anymore. So that’s another form. And then you have soy nada is another form. Rondo is another form. What else… Fugue is another form. And if you want to have that form, you have to respect like the rules of that form. I mean, you can do something else, but then there is not a full guide anymore, could be a great piece of music, but it’s gonna be another form. So song, like in the strict meaning of it, is a form. But today, if we want to innovate, how can I defy the song form and go away from verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge, chorus, chorus, and still have something that interests people because clearly there’s something there that works. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be using the Form song so much today. And the key is in repetition, like we love repetition, especially because music is something that evolves through time, like a river. So when you have a great line, you’re gonna hear it again, because it’s gone. It’s not like a painting that you can contemplate for your whole life is stasis. It’s it moves. So, repetition is if you look at all the forms is just different ways of repeating things you have a song is very clear, you have a verse that comes after the same melody, different lyrics, and then the chorus that that is rises, the energy etc, but it repeats again. So it’s all repetitions. Beavan is the queen of repetition is verse, again and again and again and again till the end, Rondo as you have a verse, and then you have a totally different verse, and then the first verse comes again. And then a third different thing, the same comes back and then the different things. So same, different, same different, but still you have something that is repeating, and you have a pattern. So I would say, create new patterns, inspire yourself from all the other things that are under the song iceberg. And as how you can innovate, and maybe also it will be nice if we could go away from the whole genre discussion or argument, sometimes, the whole form argument and why not talking more about music and try to reunite ourselves again, and create movements again, like before 20th century, we had movements I was talking about romantic period, this postmodern period and Baroque, Renaissance, medieval and the whole, at least Western humanity was kind of going through the same direction. And then genres K marketing came and people started fighting over if jazz is better, if heavy metal is better. And if this sub sub sub sub genre of metal is better than these sub sub sub sub sub genre of metal. And then we forgot, it’s all made by the same 12 notes. Size is the same is music. And I would like to go back to that it’s music just shut up and enjoy.

Jamal Whitaker
With artists and with audience like we all just want to enjoy the music. We ended up want to enjoy making it we want to enjoy listening to it. With so much technological innovation happening now. We’ve got so many cutting edge music tools coming out. Has there been a time that you’ve discovered a piece of technology surrounding music production or just music in general? That just blew your mind?

Catherine Gairard
I’m like, a little bit late with that in the sense that I always found it a bit hard to master the whole technical side of things like da W’s. It took me an eternity to figure out which one because I open Ableton is like no I died. I hate this horrible, most horrible interface out there. My production teacher uses Pro Tools and first time I saw I was like No my eyes but then it’s like, okay, I start to figure it out. For me, the easiest one was Logic Pro. I stick with that one for their life. I’m not changing. Actually, I started with GarageBand because that was me and easier after that, I mean, the I think it was wonderful. Well, obviously, that’s from the 70s. So very late on that as well. But when it comes to AI tools, for example, the thing is that when you really love music and study music, you missed that participation in it didn’t really get in there, like you actually love spending the hours, there was one beat over. And I think it was an I just generate these with those instruments in that style, this mode, etc. And it will come up with something really interesting. But it wasn’t really rewarding. For me, we just like when those instant cakes came, you know, you need to water and a powder. And people felt like they felt useless. So they had to change the recipe. And now you put a couple eggs, soy milk, and the powder is the same but, but I’m breaking the eggs, I’m doing something, I’m getting my hands dirty somehow. So it felt the same for me with those tools. However, I think it’s great for people who, for example, do something that is not music, like YouTube videos, or they are just starting out, or they have a business, and they want to have their own music, but they just don’t have the budget or the time to look, you know, for someone to do it for them. So they can start with that. And this also, it gives more opportunities to people to improve their life. So I as a musician, I support that, you know, for people who don’t know, for musicians, I wish like what would blow my mind and that will be great. And also, it will be something that if I’m imagining right now, like being the crazy person, like something that could act as a model. And it’s personal for each musician, so it’s unique for each musician, and you create your things, and just feed your model with your own things. So your model knows how to generate your music basically. So imagine you have to give because the deadlines in the soundtrack industry are very tight. So imagine you have a very important gig and you are sick, you you fall sick, or you have an accident and you can’t work. But then you have your model that will create generate music, that is totally, I like your music because it’s almost like you did it because you fed it with your own work that you did that you spent already hours doing. So it can save your bad basically, in emergency situations like that. That is how I imagined AI for professional musicians. Like oh my goodness, I or I have no inspiration whatsoever. And I need to finish my album. Okay, my own model, but just so if I look at my trap friend, musician, for example, model is nothing like mine is totally different. That is how it should work. Because there is a company I don’t remember the name, but they were training their models with license music that has copyright, but they weren’t compensating the creators. So that means that’s that’s dangerous, because that means that some motherfucker can come copy your music says there’s because en de and then you’re out of the game. Because motherfucker just did a prompt on a model. Right? So the vice president of that company actually left the company and it’s a pity I don’t remember the name because I could shame them a little bit for doing that. So that’s my my theory. My personal theory is that is labels is today. It wasn’t always like that. But today’s like a bunch of uncreative people who are unconsciously jealous of artists, and they just want to wipe them out and give the whole the whole pie for themselves, the more they can keep for themselves, the better they, for example, if I have a third album and label comes to me, and they want to sign me, they will take like 80% of what that album makes in terms of money. But not only that album, the whole catalog from the past they had nothing to do with just because they say yeah, but what we are going to do with your third album is going to benefit your other albums. And it’s like yeah, but you wouldn’t be here if I didn’t build those two albums by myself with my own gods without you without your helm. So, so that’s why I’m like I think if if we Keep an eye on it. And we need to be strong like we need to, to be active and what we want and what we demand and what Ventures we support. That’s the only way. Because if you are if you are in your own bubble, then things like what happened in the last three, four years, they come because you are in your own bubble, and you just let it happen and you just by worrying about stupid stuff, and then you don’t see the reality around you. And then you wonder, Oh, my goodness, these robots took my job.

Charney Kaye
But that was very appropriate. Your analogy of the moment in marketing in which the people that invented instant cakes, figured out that if you just let people add eggs, it takes away the shame of it. And now they feel like they can do it themselves. And the platform that we built XJ music, what we spent all this time with, is actually is making cake from scratch. To put it one way, it’s very, very much. Still, like, as you said, putting in the hours, this labor of musical love. And it’s very personal.

Catherine Gairard
Something that you can write the themes, and it kinds of suggests you order or cueing that you can later edit. That will be amazing. What I’m seeing already is that anything that can make your work faster, and focus, the more you can focus on just the creation part and less on the technical repetitive tasks are I have to put this thing here and this thing here, like something that can do the pre work for you, boom, this person who did spider man, young, he did for example, Spider Man, so you have people like that, that the Malayan fika bold spirit, you have those composers, okay. And you can directly ask them questions, and they tell you their experience. And what I sense already is that, is it something that is gonna make me work faster, and focus totally on the creative side? Yes, I’ll take it. I also pour it 100% Maybe something that generates sounds, for example, especially when you start libraries are so expensive. There’s only one company that gain my heart and my heart, that’s project Sam, same phobia series, I want them so bad, they are so expensive. And if you could have like, sometimes you have something very, very concrete. And if you could have like an AI that can you say I need a sound that is this and that is a low ball with some grass grain on it or whatever I need, just create some samples that you can drag to your sampler and use.

Charney Kaye
What we’ve tried to do is build something like if you could imagine when you’re working in logic, and you have all of your stems. And don’t worry about the technology for a moment, you know, that just thinking of it more magically, if you could train logic to play back a composition or even an entire album dynamically, you know, and imagine in the context of say a video game soundtrack where the player is taking different actions, you know, maybe there’s a whole world they’re exploring, there’s adventure, and you know, all of these different things, victory and loss. And those are queuing, the music engine for playback, but it is still basically a music box, kind of like a magical music box playing back all the different pieces. And I’m curious, it just I don’t know, riffing. In the time that we have here, how you think that you might use a tool like that in your own composition.

Catherine Gairard
So if I understood well, this engine would like sort of analyze the different themes and sort of decide okay, this is for the moment you are actually gaming and put it automatically there Right. I think that will be very useful like I enrolled to the momentum program that is for cinematic composing, and after that, I’m sure I will have even more elements and more ideas for you. Because I will have like a broader picture obviously. I’ve never been like the gamer girl at all, but a friend of my ones forced me to play Final Fantasy. And I can’t thank her enough for that. I the story that the music. It’s so amazing. I love it. It’s like my number one and only almost have a reference. I’m very curious about the whole Final Fantasy series and it really it really got me with it story.

Charney Kaye
Composing for film, I’m curious, like what your adventure with that has been so far. They talk about you know, having these light motifs and then the way that especially in a video Game, the same elements will come back in different combinations. And that might be a place with a motif, you might be there on another day with a different character. And you know how to you as a composer, think about the way that those themes are going to change, you know, depending on situations that you can’t predict, necessarily ahead of time.

Catherine Gairard
We in music love and need repetition, both the composer and the listener, in a movie or a video game, you’ll need to set like important elements. For example, in Final Fantasy 10, you have the Hymn of the fifth, that is like a very archaic modal song, so beautiful. And every time she will, the girl is the summoner, right? I don’t know how many people or maybe anyone already knows the story. So I shouldn’t be afraid of spoiling. But basically, she travels around different places in the Spira in this world, and she goes to a temple and she prays, so those feeds that she’s praying to, they have this hymn. And according to the place they are, I noticed it changes a little bit, like sometimes is a woman singing, sometimes it’s men singing, sometimes this instrumental version. So it will change like to signify the same thing, but not exactly because you are traveling. And also they are discovering more dirty secrets of the Yevhen. Religion, etc. So it’s changes. And in this particular case, he decided to change only the instruments, but I think, like the melody itself doesn’t really change because the feeds are actually like, sort of dead people. unsend people really, they are kind of stuck in time for these memories that they are trying to, to, to protect, right. And then you have this American theme that’s so heartbreaking, and also has its variations. And every time you are talking about Santa can you have that theme that comes and how it evolves. Or another example for it will be the theme of the ring in Lord of the Rings. And there is in a Locrian mode. So that simply means is very dark and creepy. And then he will have variations. For example, there is a scene with Aragorn and Frodo and he’s like, No, the ring is trying to tempt Aragon and he could just take the ring and go away like this ballroom Boromir was the one that died. He died because he fell for the ring and try to keep it he was corrupted by the ring. But the moment Aragorn closes his hand, right, like I’m not, I’m rejecting the temptation, and the melody changes to another key. And that’s, it’s all about supporting the story, in the end, how you can support the story. And I feel for now, maybe in November, next year, we can do another interview and I’ll have a completely different point of view. It’s very close to war to the symbolic movement in the 19th century would do they will take just a little melody and they will make it evolve along the whole piece. Like minor version major version another Harmonix version. Now listen, staccato now is faster tempo and now it’s this and that. Now I changed instruments is that okay? How does this sound with different another analogy that we like to use in composing, especially the classical side of composing is Impressionist movement in painting, the painters will go, for example, you have Monet, he would go to paint an ultra lambda berry Cathedral in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening or night, and see how that supposedly, steel thing was evolving throughout the day, depending on how the light would hit it. So in music is similar like how is this going to evolve? If I have this fifth, that is positive, for example, the spirit is positive. And then I have the same experience but it’s negative. So I changed instrumentation and I put a weird chord underneath, so it feels tense. You know, so how the music dresses up that image.

Charney Kaye
Catherine, it’s been a pleasure meeting you and speaking with you fascinated by all the things that you have to say And so we’ll keep in touch in the future, we’ve got a really cool demo that we’re almost done with. Thank you very much for taking the time.

Catherine Gairard
For sure. I hope that you let me know when it’s out. So maybe we can do like a review or trial. I’m working on the YouTube channel right now. So that will be a great thing to do to help spread the word because if it’s something that can help you stations, then it will be out there, you know.

Jamal Whitaker
Definitely. Definitely, will do.

Charney Kaye
Very cool.

Catherine Gairard
Perfect. Thank you so much for having me.

Jamal Whitaker
Thank you.

Charney Kaye
Come on in. The water’s fine.

Jamal Whitaker
And this isn’t a swimming pool or a lake. This is an ocean of possibilities we’re talking about, something artists couldn’t even dream of, that’s now at our fingertips.

(music: outro)